ܡܡܠܠܐ ܕܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܡܕܒܪܢܐ

Style Guide

Guys, I think that it may be a good idea to start working on a style guide that editors can use when posting and editing articles here on the Aramaic Wikipedia. Basically, something similar to what the English Wikipedia has, but altered for our purposes here. For example, some issues I believe we should bring up include:

Use of vowels and diatric marks.
Use of multiple Aramaic Dialects.
- I was thinking of setting up a template system to note which pages are in which dialects.
Spelling conventions.

What do you think? -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 17:21, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

- Hey Steve, when writing in Aramaic/Syriac/Assyrian their is no dialects. East and west are one when it comes to writing. the only diffrence is in the vowels used, the way the letter is sounded and font. Overall, if someone were to write something in western Aramaic I would not know, because i would automatically start reading what is written in my own(Eastern). In my opinion, the only problem we have so far is the use of vowels. Should we not use follows in the title as well as the body of the article? When vowels are used that is when the dialect porblem occurs. You automatically split Eastern Syriac from Western Syriac.

One thing that I wanted to add is, Eastern Syriac is used more. It is spoken by a greater number of people around the world and it has been made the official language in certian areas of Iraq.

--ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 04:08, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

ܐܬܘܪܝܐ, I don't mean to sound rude, but there are -many- dialects of Neo-Aramaic, many of which are not simply confined to a difference of vowels. To make an inventory of prominently spoken modern dialects, we would have to include Assyrian (which of course is what this Wiki was started over), Lishanid Noshan, Western, Bohtan, Barzani, Chaldean, Hertevin, Hulaula, Kou Sanjaq Surat, Mlahso, Lishana Deni, Mandaic, Samaritan, Senaya, Lishan Didan, and Turoyo which brings us to to name most of the dialects that have an ISO code. :-) The dialect differences also include grammar, spelling, idiom, and in some cases, alphabet (most modern dialects use a Syriac-derived script, but all Jewish dialects use the "Hebrew" Square Script, and Mandaic has its own altogether).

My question is: Should we lay down which dialect family this Wiki must be in and potentially discriminate the minority dialect speakers from contributing? Or should be encourage those who know different dialects to add their thoughts and knowledge of the language to our collection of articles and if so, how do we manage these? :-)

I was thinking of setting up a series of templates that we could post at the bottom of each article that state something like "This article is written in the X dialect" along with some way to redirect the reader to the same article in other dialects if it exists.

But this also brings me to another issue between the Syriac-based Neo Dialects: Should we or should we not use vowels or diatrics of any sort (obviously other than a seyame when necessary to distinguish number)? -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 14:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

About vowels, no question we should leave them out of the titles of articles and I wouldn't mind leaving them out of the actual articles themselves. It would make writing much easier, not to mention the current vowel system used is for the Madnkhaya version of the Syriac alphabet and so doesn't make sense with Estrangela and Serto. However, along with vowels, the same should be said for aspirated letters and Majliyana for reasons I've already explained on A2raya's talk page.
As for Syame, I also believe we should leave them out of the titles of articles but use them in the articles. We all know Syame has to be placed on a resh or daleth in a word, but what happens when you get a word without resh or daleth? What ends up happening is you put the Syame on any letter which alters the spelling of the title when searched. Thus if I make the article on Japanese people ܝ̈ܦܢܝܐ, then ܝܦ̈ܢܝܐ, ܝܦܢ̈ܝܐ, ܝܦܢܝ̈ܐ, etc. all have to be redirects. I find this tedious, we should just compromise and make something like ܐܢܫܐ ܝܦܢܝܐ (literally "Japanese person", but it works out all the same).
Steve, are there any standardized written forms of any of those dialects you mentioned? There isn't any for Assyrian Neo-Aramaic as far as I know, so I often employ old spellings/words that I don't even use in speaking the language on an everyday basis. For example, a while ago A2raya corrected my spelling of ܠܝܫܢܐ to ܠܫܢܐ, even though I pronounce the zlama psheeqa like a kwasa and so my original spelling reflected my particular dialect. However, there's a difference between colloquial spoken Aramaic and written Aramaic. Another example is kha (ܚܐ, one) in modern speech, which is written ܚܕ/ܚܕܐ in the "book language". Keeping this in mind, Assyrian and Chaldean Neo-Aramaic (at least) are essentially mutually intelligible.
As for other dialects, yes it's true that you can't simply understand each other by just removing the vowels and hoping everything will make sense, but that's the reason why there's a German Wikipedia and an Alemannic German Wikipedia. Or why there's only one English Wikipedia instead of having one British and one American Wikipedia. Same language, different dialects. Sometimes the dialects are close enough for complete understanding (English), other times it's not (German). --3345345335534 18:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point about seyame in titles. I'm also completely for leaving them out of articles as well, simply because of the problem in translating between vowel systems and the fact that vowels are by -no- means standardized. Standards, of all dialects I'm aware of, are sorely lacking (they're mostly like "Standards? Ask Grandpa. He's the standard." :-) )-- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 18:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

So, should we pursue this? -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 18:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

I also agree with not having vowels in titles, that makes searching for the word easier. As for having vowels in articls, I believe articles should be able to use certian vowels. It makes reading the article easier for the majaority and it doesn't turn reading into a guessing game.

example: ܝܡܐ is that word "ocean" or "mother". --ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 15:52, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Which "certain vowels" are you talking about? There are several problems:

The current system you're talking about (with vowel marks) is only present in the Madnkhaya version of the alphabet. Serto doesn't use the same "dot" system and Estrangela doesn't have vowels at all. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but it's possible to display different types of the same Syriac alphabet. Other peoples' browsers display Serto or Estrangela, but the Madnkhaya vowel marks stay. In a nutshell, this is bad.
Leaving some vowels out but inserting others, to me, is sloppy. Vowels are nice for reading out loud or learning pronunciations but since this is encyclopedia writing then you don't need to read aloud and it's assumed the reader understands the language.
Also, as I've mentioned before, Arabic and Hebrew don't have vowels (for the most part) in their wikis. The three alphabets and languages work the same way: vowels aren't important for comprehension.
On a side note, ܝܡܐ=sea, ܐܡܐ (not a typo, aleph-meem-aleph)=mother. "ܝܡܐ" as in yimma is more like "mom". Spoken isn't the same as written, again, something I've mentioned before.
So to sum up, Estrangela is the oldest written form of the alphabet--existing before vowel marks, aspiration marks, the whole works. Folks back then seemed to have a pretty easy time understanding what was written. Any similar names can be disambiguation pages (e.g. ܐܒܐ, ܫܡܝܐ). To keep things sensible:
ܦ̮ܘܙܝ ܗܪܝܪܝ must be ܦܘܙܝ ܗܪܝܪܝ,
ܡܪܝ ܕܢܚܐ ܪܒܼܝܥܝܐ must be ܡܪܝ ܕܢܚܐ ܪܒܝܥܝܐ,
ܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ must be ܐܢܫܐ ܐܬܘܪܝܐ.

And so on. --3345345335534 03:07, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Example of vowels are (ܝܲ ܝܵ ܘܼ ܝܼ) In Estrangela (ܒܼ ܓܼ ܓ̰ ܦ̮ ܪ̈) are not vowels. A dot under the letter b changes the letter to w (to some a v). The two leveled dots above a letter inside a word means it is plural. A curved line under a P changes the letter to an f. All those are not vowels that you listed above ܡܪܝ ܕܢܚܐ ܪܒܼܝܥܝܐ، ܦ̮ܘܙܝ ܗܪܝܪܝ، ܐܬܘܪ̈ܝܐ do not consit of vowels.

http://www.catholicapologetics.org/aramaic.htm

On this link, you will notice that the letter b has a dot under it and the letter y has two leveled dots above it. The writing is in estrangelo and from a neutral site.

--ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 21:54, 1 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)

...Khon, what are you talking about?

In Estrangela (ܒܼ ܓܼ ܓ̰ ܦ̮ ܪ̈) are not vowels.

Nor are they vowels in any writing system/language. Vowels are sounds made when your tongue, lips, teeth, etc. don't touch each other.

A dot under the letter b changes the letter to w (to some a v)

Otherwise known as rukakha/aspiration/"soft" letters.

The two leveled dots above a letter inside a word means it is plural

Otherwise known as syame.

A curved line under a P changes the letter to an f

Still rukakha/soft, it just looked different.

All those are not vowels that you listed above

I know that, that's why I said "existing before vowel marks, ASPIRATION MARKS, THE WHOLE WORKS." The reason I said this is because you now seem to understand leaving vowels out, but you still leave the other marks in.

I've seen Estrangela written with vowels, even though it's not supposed to (at least originally). That site you gave may be neutral, but by no means does that make it accurate. The omniglot entry for Syriac gives an example of the madnkhaya script with serto vowel marks. That's a "neutral source", but does the example work? Of course not.

Maybe pictures will work better than words since I've repeated myself ad nauseam and you still don't seem to understand. lookey here at the title of the article on Mar Dinkha (which you created). This is the same computer (mine), same script, just in different browsers (different settings). The top is madnkhaya letters with a madnkhaya aspiration mark. Okay, all is good. Now look at the bottom example in serto. Notice that small dot between the serto beth and yudh? That's your madnkhaya dot...written in serto. This doesn't work. Any marks besides the 22-letter set aren't necessary for comprehension, only pronunciation. Take a look at peshitta.org's Interlinear NT to find Estrangela in its purest form: no vowels, no rukakha, not even syame. THAT is the only way we'll satisfy all browser settings so that you can read no matter what font you're using.

I hope finally we're clear on this. It's taking way too long to agree on writing only in consonants. --3345345335534 03:40, 2 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)

Akh...I forgot to mention differences in gender (e.g. ܝܠܗ/ܝܠܗܿ), separation of different words (ܡܼܢ/ܡܿܢ) and something else probably. Any thoughts? When were all these different marks invented? If they're relatively new, then we should probably just leave them out as well. --3345345335534 05:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

ܣܘܪܬ

In the Aramaic dialects of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Bohtan Neo-Aramaic, Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, Hértevin, Koy Sanjaq Surat, Mlahsö, Senaya, Turoyo, Lishana Deni, Lishán Didán and Lishanid Noshan they all write in the same form. The only diffrence throughout all of them is the use of vowels and fonts.
I believe this wiki should be designed for the use of the en:Syriac language only. The dialects of Assyrian Neo-Aramaic, Bohtan Neo-Aramaic, Chaldean Neo-Aramaic, Hértevin, Koy Sanjaq Surat, Mlahsö, Senaya and Turoyo call it Suret/Surth

ܣܘܪܬ

What I (Eastern Syriac) read as Saypa someone (Western Syriac) else will read as sayfo.

--ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 14:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Far from it, Suret. There are differences of grammar, the use of Emphatics, consonantal shifts, spelling, idiom and vocabulary to tend with (not to mention that there are, to my knowledge, no standard bodies for the language). Understanding between some of these dialects in written form can be as low as 40%. -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 21:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The real question is whether Sureth is standardized or just a set of vernacular dialects. --3345345335534 05:02, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

All in favor of having this Wiki for the Syriac language only and having it renamed to Suret

ܣܘܪܬ

I'm staunchly against narrowing it down that far. Seeing that Aramaic is a family of languages that is already nearly extinct, I believe that we should be as open and inclusive as possible. -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 21:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont mean to bother you, but I only say it should be officialy be made a Syriac Wiki because, 1, everything written so far is entirely in syriac, 2, all the other forms of Aramaic are dead or about to die and 3, having it as a syriac language wiki will put it to better use because the syriac dialect is still being tought and spoken by well over 3 million people. --ܐܬܘܪܝܐ 02:19, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If "all the other forms of Aramaic are dead or about to die" then what would be the harm of allowing other dialects as well? If not, if there is a quorum to make such a move, our subdomain cannot stay as "arc" (as it would be extremely misleading). It would need to change to "syr". -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 18:39, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

"is"

...This sounds like a stupid question, but what's "is" in Aramaic? Up until now I've been using ܝܠܗܿ/ܝܠܗ, but I'm not sure if this is right. I can't find written examples of it anywhere; it's how I pronounce it. However, ܗܘ/ܗܝ keeps coming up. Apparently it can mean "is" as well as "he/she". It also seems to be cognate with Arabic هو/هي and Hebrew הוא/היא. Any thoughts? --3345345335534 16:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

"Is" is tricky is what it is :-) Like in English, it's highly irregular. I've never actually seen ܝܠܗ anywhere else but here, so I have no idea even what dialect it's from. Overall, I'd prefer to use ܗܘ and ܗܝ (he/she is when used as a copula) or the "verb" ܐܝܬ in it's properly conjugated form (i.e. ܐܝܬܘܗܝ and ܐܝܬܝܬ).

For example:

ܬܕܝ ܗܘ ܕܓܝܓ or ܬܕܝ ܐܝܬܘܗܝ ܕܓܝܓ

Both are Syriac for "Thad is crazy," but the first (the use of ܗܘ) is the form I use most often when I speak. :-) -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 07:18, 3 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to use ܗܘ/ܗܝ from now on, but what's the difference between that and the ܐܝܬܘܗܝ/ܐܝܬܝܬ you mentioned? --3345345335534 16:51, 4 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:ܕܘܒܪܐ

Everyone, I've added a new Wikipedia namespace page: Wikipedia:ܕܘܒܪܐ for the purpose of establishing a place to put core rules and guidelines. I've listed the issues with vowels and diatrics. Please give me comments! :-) -- -ܐܡܪ ܠܝ- Steve Caruso -- 07:42, 3 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)

Looks good so far. :) --3345345335534 04:17, 5 ܫܒܛ 2007 (UTC)