ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܬܪܥܐ ܕܟܢܫܐ

ܨܝܢܐܝܬ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܝܬ

I'm a bit confused now when we should use ܨܝܢܐܝܬ and when to use ܨܝܢܝܬ. What or when should we use which form? Ofcourse I also mean with other languages. -- Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 21:26, 9 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Diffidently with an Olaf. Payne-Smith mentions Syriac as ܣܘܪܝܐܝܬ and not ܣܘܪܝܝܬ.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 11:33, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

That's also what I thought, until I saw this edit Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 12:49, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Forms ending in ܐܝܬ- are adverbs, so ܨܝܢܐܝܬ means "in Chinese" or, literally, "Chinese-ly". I don't think the form without the Alaph exists in classical Syriac, but we use it in the Neo-Aramaic languages (as in Sooreth/Soorit/Soorayt) and Hebrew seems to use it as well (`Ivreet = "Hebrew", Sooreet = "Syriac"). So the form without the Alaph means something different from the form with the Alaph.

Names like ܐܘܪܕܘ can't really take the ܐܝܬ- ending, so they should be prefixed with -ܒ (so ܒܐܘܪܕܘ rather than "ܐܘܪܕܘܐܝܬ", which is odd). --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 16:59, 11 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. But isn't it a little bit contradictory to use a Neo-Aramaic form like it is a classical one, since you mention that the form without the Alapf doesn't exist in the classical way? Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:39, 11 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Isn't using the Neo-Aramaic spelling ܬܘܪܟܝܐ also contradictory because that wouldn't have been spelled like that in the classical way? :) --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:39, 12 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

That's true. So would you say that when we use ܨܝܢܝܬ in the current pages, we refere to the alternative Neo-Aramaic spelling? Because if that's the case, then I would be glad to see if we use both the classical and the modern way, like we do at ܛܘܪܩܝܐ for example.

In the Chinese language's page it would be like: "ܠܫܢܐ ܨܝܢܝܐ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܐܝܬ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܝܬ"

Or perhaps even better: "ܠܫܢܐ ܨܝܢܝܐ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܐܝܬ (ܒܠܫܢ̈ܐ ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ ܚܕ̈ܬܬܐ: ܨܝܢܝܬ". Ofcourse this example would be appliable for other pages with modern alternatives in it, like ܛܘܪܩܝܐ/ܬܘܪܟܝܐ.

It is a suggestion, so please the both of you, let me know that you think of it. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 19:43, 12 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Like I said before, the form with Alaph is an adverb (so ܨܝܢܐܝܬ = "in Chinese"). It seems very awkward to introduce an article using that ("The Chinese language or in Chinese is...").

I actually just like the way it is now. Do we even use something like "ܨܝܢܝܬ" in the modern languages? Every Neo-Aramaic speaker I've ever heard just uses Arabic/English names for languages (except perhaps for ܣܘܪܝܬ). To say that "ܨܝܢܝܬ" is Neo-Aramaic is erroneous, I think.

By the way, I think "ܒܠܫܢ̈ܐ ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ ܚܕ̈ܬܬܐ" is grammatically incorrect gender. It shouldn't have the extra Taw in there. ;) --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 04:18, 13 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I see your point now. Thank you for the explanation. Ofcourse the extra taw was a typo :-). Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 20:56, 14 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Beth Mardutho back online

Wonderful news: Bethmardutho.org is back online with a brand new website!. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:51, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

foreign names

I have recently started creating links for the list of articles seen ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܡܟܬܒܘܬܐ_ܕܡܓܠܐ_ܠܟܠ_ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ. An obvious obstacle is the way foreign names should be spelled. I have tryed to mostly transliterate them from Hebrew since it's the closest language to our's but some names still confuse me... For example is it ܒܢܣܢܬ or ܘܢܣܢܬ? and should we write ܘܘܪܗܘܠ or ܘܪܗܘܠ? and which one is more correct for wright: ܪܝܝܬ or ܪܐܝܬ?--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 23:31, 14 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

You are doing a great job so far Rafy!. As for the transliteration, I see that you used different letters to transliterate one letter. One time ܒ for Vincent, and one time ܦ for Van. Try to stick to one choice when you transliterate. Since we use the ܒ for the B/V and the ܘ for the W, and the ܦ for P/F, I would transliterate it as "ܒܢܣܢܬ ܒܢ ܟܘܟ". As for the other words, that's difficult, since we usually don't have standard rules to transliterate foreign words. Everyone transliterates on his own way. I would say it's not wrong to choose between ܪܝܝܬ or ܪܐܝܬ, but I would ask myself in which way I would get the pronounciation right. Perhaps we should make a transliteration table for foreign letters.. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:27, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, I will make at least one article daily, should improve my Syriac as well. Indeed we need to make up a some rules. A good way is to see how they transliterated Greek words to Syriac. So if I'm not wrong: t = ܛ. q, c, k = ܩ. and ch=ܟ (same as Hebrew afaik). but how about V? and ou and ei? 334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ • ܫܘܬܦܘܬ̈ܐ) have been working at wiktionary so he should have some ideas...--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:45, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

In the same subject, is the English ch supposed to be transliterated as ܬܫ or as ܟ̰? Because I often see here the former (ܬܫܐܒܙ, ܬܫܐܕ). Also, I see ܓ (without the tilde) is often used to represent the English j. Is the tilde often dropped when writing without vocalization marks? TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:50, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I meant the German ch /x/ like in buch.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 08:49, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Rafy, I would use Beth to write all "v" sounds. There are a few things to keep in mind about modern Hebrew:

• Waw (Vav) is usually used for a "v" at the beginning of a word while Beth for a "v" everywhere else, which they can do since the modern Hebrew Waw is pronounced like "v" (unlike the classical Syriac Waw).
• Tsadi is pronounced like "ts", unlike our Sadhe, Arabic Sad, or even biblical Hebrew Sadhi.
• The consonantal "w" and "y" sounds are usually written doubled to distinguish them from their vowel counterparts "u"/"o" and "i". Hence, "Wright" is spelled רייט instead of ריט and "Yawan" (Greece) is spelled יוון instead of יון.

As a general rule, I like referring to both the Arabic and Hebrew spellings and trying to find common ground between both while keeping our own rules in mind. "Vincent van Gogh" is spelled فينسنت فان غوخ in Arabic and וינסנט ואן גוך in Hebrew, so I would go for ܒܝܢܣܢܛ ܒܐܢ ܓܘܟ. For "Andy Warhol", it's آندي وارهول in Arabic and אנדי וורהול in Hebrew; in that case, I would use my own gut feeling go with the Hebrew spelling: ܐܢܕܝ ܘܘܪܗܘܠ. In addition to being closer to our language than Arabic, Hebrew is usually more consistent and accurate. However, it's not always about trying to keep the pronunciation as close to the original language as possible, rather, try to "Syriacize" the pronunciation. If we tried to stick to a 100% accurate phonetic transcription, then "Toronto" would be ܬܫܪܐܢܘܘ since, in the Torontonian pronunciation, a) the "tor" is pronounced like "chr", b) the second "o" is like an "a", c) the second "t" isn't pronounced, and d) the English "o" isn't a pure vowel (ܘ) but a diphthong "ow" (ܘܘ).
I think the rules for consonants are fairly consistent, but we need to standardize our vowel rules some more. The outline at the rules page is pretty vague right now. We'll probably end up having to look at each individual language and set up a unique method for transliterating them, but we have to establish a good foundation first.
TFighterPilot, if I'm not mistaken, Majliyana (the "tilde") is a relatively recent eastern Syriac development. Western Syriac uses something else, and classical Syriac (which is what we're using) doesn't use anything at all. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 20:34, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I figured it's recent (like the Hebrew Geresh) However, as I said, you do use ܓ for English j. For example ܐܙܪܒܝܓܐܢ. Also, about using ו or ב for [v]. ו is used in the beginning of words, because בגד כפת in the beginning of a word, in Hebrew, is always hard. I, as a Hebrew speaker, would read ܒܐܢ as Ban, but it might be different for Syriac speakers. TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 08:28, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Actually the Dutch "V" is pronounced /f/, "W" is /v/ and "ch" and "g" are /x/. so I think we should try to sort of "translate" the individual letters as they are pronounced by natives phonetically into our language instead of reproducing them in English first. So Van Gogh should in this case ܦܢܣܢܜ ܦܢ ܟܘܟ.

I agree that we should follow Hebrew as much as possible since Arabic seem much less standardised, for example Warhol could be written ورهول, وارهول, وورهول as well. there are some things unique to Hebrew like the use of tsade for /t͡ʃ/ and here we could better produce the sound with the combination ܬܫ just like in Arabic.

Another think... Sould we translate biblical names to Aramaic or keep them the way they're written in their native languages? In Arabic for example they translate names like "Mehmet" and "Mamadou" to محمد.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 08:49, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew isn't that standardized. Especially when it comes to ו and even וו, both can be either [v] or [w]. Arabic names are also a problem. For example, Saddam is usually written as סדאם but sometimes as צדאם. Western names who are of Hebrew origin are usually written in their native pronunciation. Josef will be written as ג'וזף and David as דייויד. Often they are written in their Hebrew form when the people are Jews. For example, Moses Montefiore (British politician) is written as משה rather than מוזס. Again, this isn't exactly standardized. TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 09:06, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

TFighterPilot: Yup, I think a "j" was just transcribed (and pronounced?) as Gamal when we borrowed words, kind of like how English transcribes/pronounces both Arabic Sin and Sad as "s". Classical Syriac has the same BGDKPT rules as in biblical Hebrew, but I think foreign words are not subject to the rules. There are lots of words borrowed from Persian that start with a "v" and are written with Beth, for example. Whether they kept the "v" pronunciation or it just became "b", I do not know. TFP, I have a question: does Hebrew pronounce "פינלנד" like Finland or like Pinland? What about other borrowed words that start with a soft letter? Also, I think what Rafy and I mean when we say that we should side with Hebrew over Arabic is that Hebrew is more standardized (and closer to Syriac) than Arabic is. I don't think there's a single language in the world that is perfectly set up to translate words from every language and be consistent every time, but some are better than others. :)

Rafy: I know about the Dutch letters having different sound values from English but, like I said, I don't think we should go for 100% native phonetic accuracy. I used to write like that (e.g., ܙܝܓܡܘܢܕ ܦܪܘܝܕ used to be ܙܝܓܡܘܢܬ ܦܪܘܝܬ since a final "d" is pronounced like "t" in German), but not anymore. Remember the ܬܫܪܐܢܘܘ = "Toronto" example I gave? Also, think of how we use Teth, not Taw, to write English "t". I think if the Hebrew and Arabic equivalents are identical, then we should match them regardless of the native pronunciation. If the Arabic/Hebrew spellings differ and one is closer to the native pronunciation, then I think we should side with the native pronunciation. I think it's the same with biblical names: if Arabic/Hebrew translate, we translate; if they transliterate, we transliterate; if they differ, then we transliterate (i.e., go with the native pronunciation). Of course, if you pick one over the other in any of these situations (transliterating vs. translating, native pronunciation vs. English/Semitic pronunciation), then it couldn't hurt to make redirects. E.g., for "Isaac Newton", Arabic translates (إسحاق) while Hebrew transliterates (אייזק), so I think we should follow the Hebrew example in this specific case and transliterate. Currently, the article on Isaac Newton translates (ܐܝܣܚܩ ܢܝܘܛܢ), so I would be in favour of moving it. Had Hebrew used יצחק instead of אייזק, then I would be fine with the way it is now. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 03:45, 17 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

We pronounce it as Finland, since it's a well established well known word. Plus, unlike [v], there's no other letter for [f]. In the case of פיג'י, though, I'm sure that most Hebrew speakers who first encounter that word written pronounce it as Piji. TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 05:56, 17 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to immitate how words are pronounced in their native languages but simply to pronouce individual consonants like they are pronounced by native speakers. For example "Nijmegen" should be ܢܝܡܟܢ rather than the English influenced ܢܓܡܓܢ.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 16:41, 17 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I don't quite see the difference in what you're saying between not immitating words but immitating consonants. Words are built up from consonants, no? So would you be in favour of the spelling ܙܝܓܡܘܢܕ ܦܪܘܝܕ or ܙܝܓܡܘܢܬ ܦܪܘܝܬ? As for "Nijmegen", according to w:en:Dutch phonology, southern Dutch speakers pronounce the "g" like our soft Gamal. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:25, 18 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

The way I would write Nijmegen in Syriac would be: ܢܲܝܡܸܝܟܢ. Definitely not with a gomal. But please keep in mind that I don't know the phonetic alphabet. Southern Dutch "soft g" (zachte g) sounds a bit like the sound that a cat makes when it is angry. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 22:30, 18 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I thought the sound cats make is ܚ. That's the sound I always make to scare them away. TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 11:53, 19 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

The soft G in Dutch /ç/ is very similar to the German ch as in Ich which is somewhere between /x/ and /k/ and should be represented by a "ܟ". imo.

@ 334a, what I meant by translating consonants is to follow simple phonological rules of their native languages and "Syriacise" them eventually, rather than sticking with English ones when translating non-English names. Tow simple examples are how a Somali "C" and Nordic "Å" should be represented by /ʕ/ and /o/ and not /k/ and /a/.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 22:18, 19 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

I would say that /ç/, at least articulatorily, is actually in between /x/ and /ʃ/ ("kh" and "sh") and I agree we should definitely write /ç/ using Kaph. However, the English article on Nijmegen says the "g" is pronounced [ɣ] (like our soft Gamal) and the article on Dutch phonology says that northern Dutch dialects have lost the [ɣ] sound (the exact words are "In the North /ɣ/ is usually realized as [x] or [χ]").

Rafy, if you're going by phonology and not phonetics, then Dutch "ch" (phonologically /x/, phonetically [x]) should be represented by Kaph while Dutch "g" (phonologically /ɣ/, phonetically [x] in the north) should be represented by Gamal. It's the same with English "s" (phonologically /s/, phonetically [s], [z], [ʃ], [ʒ], etc.) which should always be written with Semkath, even though some realizations are equivalent to our Zayn or Sheen (which should be used for English /z/ and /ʃ/ respectively). It's not the case at all that using Gamal to write Dutch "g" is because of English influence. I think we actually all agree on how to transliterate at the basic level, it's just that we're getting confused between each language's distinct phonology and phonetics. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:55, 20 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)

New software, possible problems

Dear all, I've noticed that we have new software on this wiki (at least that's what I think happened). Now when I create a page, the possibility to mark an edit as "small" is gone. Also Hotcat isn't working as it should be, since some tools are gone now. Last but not least, the edit bar isn't the extented one when I use compatibility mode on IE9.

If you encounter some problems, even if they are small, please report it here so we can make a bugreport. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 14:02, 8 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

---

I thought something was screwy. Mainly in the English Wikipedia running IE8:

• Usually, when you hover the cursor over an interwiki link in the sidebar, you'll see a yellow box pop up with the name of the article in that language. That seems to be broken for me.
• Briefly (though it's been fixed now), I couldn't see the "edit" buttons that appear on the sides of headers. I had to click on the "edit" tab at the very top of the article. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 15:48, 8 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

---

Thank you. These are (or were) the problems so far:

1. No "small edit" button when creating a new page
2. No compatibility for HotCat - Fixed
3. No extented edit bar in compatibility view
4. No yellow pop up at interwiki links
5. No edit buttons on the sides of headers - Fixed

Feel free to add new problems to this list. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 18:15, 8 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

Language support group for Aramese

The Wikimedia Foundation has brought together a new team of developers who are dedicated to language support. This team is to support all the languages and consequently it is not realistic to expect that the team members can provide proper support for your language. It is for this reason that we are looking for volunteers who will make up a language support team.

This language support team will be asked to provide us with information about their language. Such information may need to be provided either to us or on a website that we will indicate to you. Another activity will be to test software that will likely have an effect on the running of the MediaWiki software. We are looking for people who clearly identify their ability. Formal knowledge is definitely appreciated.

As much of the activity will be concentrated on translatewiki.net, it will be a plus when team members know how to localise at translatewiki.net. Thanks, Gmeijssen (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 05:45, 15 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

Terms of Use update

I apologize that you are receiving this message in English. Please help translate it.

Hello,

The Wikimedia Foundation is discussing changes to its Terms of Use. The discussion can be found at Talk:Terms of use. Everyone is invited to join in. Because the new version of Terms of use is not in final form, we are not able to present official translations of it. Volunteers are welcome to translate it, as German volunteers have done at m:Terms of use/de, but we ask that you note at the top that the translation is unofficial and may become outdated as the English version is changed. The translation request can be found at m:Translation requests/WMF/Terms of Use 2 -- Maggie Dennis, Community Liaison 22:06, 21 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

2011 Fundraising Is Almost Here

Hello Wikipedians, my name is Alex and I am working for the Wikimedia Foundation during the 2011 Fundraiser. This year's fundraiser is intended to be a collaborative and global effort; we recognize that messages which may perform well in the United States don't necessarily translate well, or appeal to international audiences.

I'm contacting you as I am currently looking for volunteers who are willing to contribute to this project by helping translate and localize messages into your local language, suggesting community appeals for us to use, and to provide us with feedback on the Fundraising Meta Page. We've started the setup on meta for both translation, statistical analysis, and local discussion and testing. We actively encourage focusing discussion on meta so we can all work together.
Use the talk pages on meta, talk to your local communities, talk to others, talk to us. Engagement is what we strive for, without each other we would never had made Wikimedia succeed. The staff working on this fundraiser is comprised of long-time Wikimedians with as much care and concern for the success of this drive as the volunteers, and we want you to actively participate and have a voice. Everyone is welcome to contact any of us on staff at any time with a timely response to follow. I look forward to working with you during this year's fundraiser.

If someone could translate this message I would really appreciate it so that everyone is able to understand our goals and contribute to this year's campaign.
Azariv (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 19:37, 31 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܩܕܡ 2011 (UTC)

ܫܚܠܦܬܐ ܕܠܒܘܝܫܬܐ ܕܦܐܬܐ ܪܝܫܝܬܐ

ܫܚܠܦܬܐ ܕܠܒܘܝܫܬܐ ܕܦܐܬܐ ܪܝܫܝܬܐ ܐܚܝ ܡܘܚܒ̈ܐ: ܫܠܡܝ ܩܒܠܘܢ

ܒܕ ܫܪܟ ܠܫܩܠܐ ܪܥܝܢ̈ܐ ܕܝܠܘܟܘܢ ܒܘܕ ܫܚܠܦܬܐ ܕܠܒܘܫܐ ܕܦܐܬܐ ܪܝܫܝܬܐ ܕܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ ܕܠܫܢܢ ܡܘܚܒܐ (ܐܣܘܪܝܝܐ) ܘܒܕ ܗܐܘܝܠܢ ܫܩܠܬܐ ܬܚܡܢܝܬܐ ܘܥܩܦܝܬܐ ܡܢܘܟܘܢ. ܡܨܝܢܬܝܠܗ ܕܚܙܝܬ ܠܒܘܫܐ ܚܕܬܐ ܠܐܟܐ ܟܕ ܒܐܠܬ ܐܝܢܬܘܢ ܒܠܒܘܫܐ ܥܬܝܩܐ. [ܚܕܬܐ ܠܐܚܐ]

ܩܕ ܝܗܒܬ ܩܠܘܟ ܙܠ ܠܐܚܐ:ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܫܚܠܦܬܐ ܕܠܒܘܝܫܬܐ ܕܦܐܬܐ ܪܝܫܝܬܐ.

Changing the front page template style

Shlama! We worked to build a brand new front page interface for Wikipedia SYRIAC page, and we want to ask for your opinion of changing to the new style or not? you can see the new style over here: [see the new style], and after that you can submit your vote in this page voting page

if you agree for the new changes select ܐܘܝܐ and if you don't like it select ܣܩܘܒܠܐ in the edit menu.

The link is broken TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 18:35, 7 ܒܬܫܪܝܢ ܐܚܪܝ 2011 (UTC)