«ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܬܪܥܐ ܕܟܢܫܐ»: ܦܘܪܫܐ ܒܝܢܝ ܬܢܝܬ̈ܐ

ܡܢ ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ، ܐܝܢܣܩܠܘܦܕܝܐ ܚܐܪܬܐ
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ܣܪܛܐ 35: ܣܪܛܐ 35:
I think the rules for consonants are fairly consistent, but we need to standardize our vowel rules some more. The outline at the rules page is pretty vague right now. We'll probably end up having to look at each individual language and set up a unique method for transliterating them, but we have to establish a good foundation first.<br>
I think the rules for consonants are fairly consistent, but we need to standardize our vowel rules some more. The outline at the rules page is pretty vague right now. We'll probably end up having to look at each individual language and set up a unique method for transliterating them, but we have to establish a good foundation first.<br>
TFighterPilot, if I'm not mistaken, ''Majliyana'' (the "tilde") is a relatively recent eastern Syriac development. Western Syriac uses something else, and classical Syriac (which is what we're using) doesn't use anything at all. --[[ܡܦܠܚܢܐ:334a|334a]] ([[ܡܡܠܠܐ ܕܡܦܠܚܢܐ:334a|ܡܡܠܠܐ]]) 20:34, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)
TFighterPilot, if I'm not mistaken, ''Majliyana'' (the "tilde") is a relatively recent eastern Syriac development. Western Syriac uses something else, and classical Syriac (which is what we're using) doesn't use anything at all. --[[ܡܦܠܚܢܐ:334a|334a]] ([[ܡܡܠܠܐ ܕܡܦܠܚܢܐ:334a|ܡܡܠܠܐ]]) 20:34, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)
:I figured it's recent (like the Hebrew Geresh) However, as I said, you do use ܓ for English ''j''. For example [[ܐܙܪܒܝܓܐܢ]]. Also, about using ו or ב for [v]. ו is used in the beginning of words, because בגד כפת in the beginning of a word, in Hebrew, is always hard. I, as a Hebrew speaker, would read ܒܐܢ as Ban, but it might be different for Syriac speakers. [[ܡܦܠܚܢܐ:TFighterPilot|TFighterPilot]] ([[ܡܡܠܠܐ ܕܡܦܠܚܢܐ:TFighterPilot|ܡܡܠܠܐ]]) 08:28, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)


[[ܣܕܪܐ:ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ]]
[[ܣܕܪܐ:ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ]]

ܬܢܝܬܐ ܒܣܝܩܘܡ 08:28, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011

ܨܝܢܐܝܬ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܝܬ

I'm a bit confused now when we should use ܨܝܢܐܝܬ and when to use ܨܝܢܝܬ. What or when should we use which form? Ofcourse I also mean with other languages. -- Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 21:26, 9 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Diffidently with an Olaf. Payne-Smith mentions Syriac as ܣܘܪܝܐܝܬ and not ܣܘܪܝܝܬ.--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 11:33, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's also what I thought, until I saw this edit Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 12:49, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Forms ending in ܐܝܬ- are adverbs, so ܨܝܢܐܝܬ means "in Chinese" or, literally, "Chinese-ly". I don't think the form without the Alaph exists in classical Syriac, but we use it in the Neo-Aramaic languages (as in Sooreth/Soorit/Soorayt) and Hebrew seems to use it as well (`Ivreet = "Hebrew", Sooreet = "Syriac"). So the form without the Alaph means something different from the form with the Alaph.
Names like ܐܘܪܕܘ can't really take the ܐܝܬ- ending, so they should be prefixed with -ܒ (so ܒܐܘܪܕܘ rather than "ܐܘܪܕܘܐܝܬ", which is odd). --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 16:59, 11 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your explanation. But isn't it a little bit contradictory to use a Neo-Aramaic form like it is a classical one, since you mention that the form without the Alapf doesn't exist in the classical way? Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:39, 11 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't using the Neo-Aramaic spelling ܬܘܪܟܝܐ also contradictory because that wouldn't have been spelled like that in the classical way? :) --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:39, 12 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That's true. So would you say that when we use ܨܝܢܝܬ in the current pages, we refere to the alternative Neo-Aramaic spelling? Because if that's the case, then I would be glad to see if we use both the classical and the modern way, like we do at ܛܘܪܩܝܐ for example.
In the Chinese language's page it would be like: "ܠܫܢܐ ܨܝܢܝܐ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܐܝܬ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܝܬ"
Or perhaps even better: "ܠܫܢܐ ܨܝܢܝܐ ܐܘ ܨܝܢܐܝܬ (ܒܠܫܢ̈ܐ ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ ܚܕ̈ܬܬܐ: ܨܝܢܝܬ". Ofcourse this example would be appliable for other pages with modern alternatives in it, like ܛܘܪܩܝܐ/ܬܘܪܟܝܐ.
It is a suggestion, so please the both of you, let me know that you think of it. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 19:43, 12 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said before, the form with Alaph is an adverb (so ܨܝܢܐܝܬ = "in Chinese"). It seems very awkward to introduce an article using that ("The Chinese language or in Chinese is...").
I actually just like the way it is now. Do we even use something like "ܨܝܢܝܬ" in the modern languages? Every Neo-Aramaic speaker I've ever heard just uses Arabic/English names for languages (except perhaps for ܣܘܪܝܬ). To say that "ܨܝܢܝܬ" is Neo-Aramaic is erroneous, I think.
By the way, I think "ܒܠܫܢ̈ܐ ܐܪ̈ܡܝܐ ܚܕ̈ܬܬܐ" is grammatically incorrect gender. It shouldn't have the extra Taw in there. ;) --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 04:18, 13 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see your point now. Thank you for the explanation. Ofcourse the extra taw was a typo :-). Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 20:56, 14 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Beth Mardutho back online

Wonderful news: Bethmardutho.org is back online with a brand new website!. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:51, 10 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

foreign names

I have recently started creating links for the list of articles seen ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ:ܡܟܬܒܘܬܐ_ܕܡܓܠܐ_ܠܟܠ_ܘܝܩܝܦܕܝܐ. An obvious obstacle is the way foreign names should be spelled. I have tryed to mostly transliterate them from Hebrew since it's the closest language to our's but some names still confuse me... For example is it ܒܢܣܢܬ or ܘܢܣܢܬ? and should we write ܘܘܪܗܘܠ or ܘܪܗܘܠ? and which one is more correct for wright: ܪܝܝܬ or ܪܐܝܬ?--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 23:31, 14 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are doing a great job so far Rafy!. As for the transliteration, I see that you used different letters to transliterate one letter. One time ܒ for Vincent, and one time ܦ for Van. Try to stick to one choice when you transliterate. Since we use the ܒ for the B/V and the ܘ for the W, and the ܦ for P/F, I would transliterate it as "ܒܢܣܢܬ ܒܢ ܟܘܟ". As for the other words, that's difficult, since we usually don't have standard rules to transliterate foreign words. Everyone transliterates on his own way. I would say it's not wrong to choose between ܪܝܝܬ or ܪܐܝܬ, but I would ask myself in which way I would get the pronounciation right. Perhaps we should make a transliteration table for foreign letters.. Michaelovic (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:27, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I will make at least one article daily, should improve my Syriac as well. Indeed we need to make up a some rules. A good way is to see how they transliterated Greek words to Syriac. So if I'm not wrong: t = ܛ. q, c, k = ܩ. and ch=ܟ (same as Hebrew afaik). but how about V? and ou and ei? 334a (ܡܡܠܠܐܫܘܬܦܘܬ̈ܐ) have been working at wiktionary so he should have some ideas...--Rafy (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 10:45, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]
In the same subject, is the English ch supposed to be transliterated as ܬܫ or as ܟ̰? Because I often see here the former (ܬܫܐܒܙ, ܬܫܐܕ). Also, I see ܓ (without the tilde) is often used to represent the English j. Is the tilde often dropped when writing without vocalization marks? TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 17:50, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rafy, I would use Beth to write all "v" sounds. There are a few things to keep in mind about modern Hebrew:

  • Waw (Vav) is usually used for a "v" at the beginning of a word while Beth for a "v" everywhere else, which they can do since the modern Hebrew Waw is pronounced like "v" (unlike the classical Syriac Waw).
  • Tsadi is pronounced like "ts", unlike our Sadhe, Arabic Sad, or even biblical Hebrew Sadhi.
  • The consonantal "w" and "y" sounds are usually written doubled to distinguish them from their vowel counterparts "u"/"o" and "i". Hence, "Wright" is spelled רייט instead of ריט and "Yawan" (Greece) is spelled יוון instead of יון.

As a general rule, I like referring to both the Arabic and Hebrew spellings and trying to find common ground between both while keeping our own rules in mind. "Vincent van Gogh" is spelled فينسنت فان غوخ in Arabic and וינסנט ואן גוך in Hebrew, so I would go for ܒܝܢܣܢܛ ܒܐܢ ܓܘܟ. For "Andy Warhol", it's آندي وارهول in Arabic and אנדי וורהול in Hebrew; in that case, I would use my own gut feeling go with the Hebrew spelling: ܐܢܕܝ ܘܘܪܗܘܠ. In addition to being closer to our language than Arabic, Hebrew is usually more consistent and accurate. However, it's not always about trying to keep the pronunciation as close to the original language as possible, rather, try to "Syriacize" the pronunciation. If we tried to stick to a 100% accurate phonetic transcription, then "Toronto" would be ܬܫܪܐܢܘܘ since, in the Torontonian pronunciation, a) the "tor" is pronounced like "chr", b) the second "o" is like an "a", c) the second "t" isn't pronounced, and d) the English "o" isn't a pure vowel (ܘ) but a diphthong "ow" (ܘܘ).
I think the rules for consonants are fairly consistent, but we need to standardize our vowel rules some more. The outline at the rules page is pretty vague right now. We'll probably end up having to look at each individual language and set up a unique method for transliterating them, but we have to establish a good foundation first.
TFighterPilot, if I'm not mistaken, Majliyana (the "tilde") is a relatively recent eastern Syriac development. Western Syriac uses something else, and classical Syriac (which is what we're using) doesn't use anything at all. --334a (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 20:34, 15 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I figured it's recent (like the Hebrew Geresh) However, as I said, you do use ܓ for English j. For example ܐܙܪܒܝܓܐܢ. Also, about using ו or ב for [v]. ו is used in the beginning of words, because בגד כפת in the beginning of a word, in Hebrew, is always hard. I, as a Hebrew speaker, would read ܒܐܢ as Ban, but it might be different for Syriac speakers. TFighterPilot (ܡܡܠܠܐ) 08:28, 16 ܒܐܝܠܘܠ 2011 (UTC)[reply]